Casarez's response to Gandalf's Question New Age in Imaginary Worlds Thu, 12 Nov 1998 Clement's response to Gandalf and Casarez Thu, 12 Nov
- Gandalf's response to Casarez and moving on to "Who is On the Lord's Side? Fri, 13 Nov 1998
- Clement's response to Gandalf Fri, 13 Nov 1998
- Dr. Karen Cubie Henck response to Gandalf Fri, 13 Nov 1998
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1998
From: Anderson Rearick <trearick@mission.mvnc.edu>
To: scifi@mvnc.edu
Subject: New Age in Imaginary WorldsHello Group:
As is often the case, there are just too many things going on around
here at MVNC. However, I am very sorry that I missed the lecture the
other night on "New Age" influences in our culture.I am hoping that someone on the list can enlighten me on what I have
heard. According to one source the speaker connected the mythic system
created by Lukus in his Star Wars series with New Age.Another source told me that he claimed that C.S. Lewis was (I believe the term was)
"demonic." Is this accurate? Can anyone confirm or deny this?In some ways I can understand his connection of Lukas with New Age. But
much of what comes out of that is more clearly connected with Zen
teachings. The problem I am having is whether or not this speaker feels
that all fiction must function within the realms of the mythos we see
around us in our day to day lives?If this is so, then he will have a hard time with Tolkien, Lovecraft and Poe (just to name a few). But I am getting ahead of myself. Can anyone please tell me what was said this past Monday?
Still Proud to be
Gandalf
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:30:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Corbin K Casarez <ccasarez@mission.mvnc.edu>
To: Anderson Rearick <trearick@mission.mvnc.edu>
Cc: scifi@mvnc.edu
Subject: Re: New Age in Imaginary WorldsHello all,
I attended that sorry evening, and left quite disgusted. I have discussed
it in several of my philosophy classes and in honors discussions. Let me
comment on the questions posed and my own frustrations interspersed with
the previous e-mail....On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Dr. Anderson M. Rearick III wrote:
> Hello Group:
>
> As is often the case, there are just too many things going on around
> here at MVNC. However, I am very sorry that I missed the lecture the
> other night on "New Age" influences in our culture.How fortunate, for it was not a learning opportunity, but rather an
opportunity for one individual to pull out a soapbox and scare the public
with a panic technique of too much, too quickly.>
> I am hoping that someone on the list can enlighten me on what I have
> heard. According to one source the speaker connected the mythic system
> created by Lukus in his Star Wars series with New Age.He did, but more with the idea of the Force being neither Good nor Evil,
but a power that could be utilized by "enlightened" individuals. He
tended not to want to participate with anything not strictly and literally
Biblical.Another source
> told me that he claimed that C.S. Lewis was (I believe the term was)
> "demonic." Is this accurate? Can anyone confirm or deny this?
>He did not claim C.S. Lewis was demonic. He did not even say he was
occultic. But he did say that much of Lewis's mythological fiction was
not Christian in content, and that a discerning eye would be wary of such
literature. He said also that the group formed by Tolkien and Lewis was
of occultic nature, though in the question and answer session he clarified
to say that he did not judge Lewis specifically to be involved in any
occultic practice. However, he was harsh about association indicating
guilt.
> In some ways I can understand his connection of Lukas with New Age. But
> much of what comes out of that is more clearly connected with Zen
> teachings. The problem I am having is whether or not this speaker feels
> that all fiction must function within the realms of the mythos we see
> around us in our day to day lives?I believe this would be accurate. He said firmly that he wanted his
children to live in a "real" world, as if the New Age movement was one of
fictional existence. He did not let them watch cartoons, read books with
talking animals, or observe anything that was outside the realm of normal
rationality. I hope his kids' creative functions still exist when they
turn 18.If this is so, then he will have a
> hard time with Tolkien, Lovecraft and Poe (just to name a few). But I
> am getting ahead of myself. Can anyone please tell me what was said
> this past Monday?
>Very much so, he spoke against Tolkien and other forms of literature that
were not accurate and did not portray Biblical values. This seems naive
to me. How can we be critical in a world that values such things, if we
ourselves intentionally shelter our minds? If our God is not big enough
to withstand pressures from secular philosophies and literature (not that
all secular media is bad, but just for case in point), then why do we
believe in Him? He doesn't seem capable of dealing with the "real world"
in the sense of what others are doing! I felt almost like I was in a
brainwashing session, and when asked what the foundation of his assertions
were, was told "The Bible--either it's true or it's not. You can't
question it, and if you do, you do not believe." I hope he doesn't let
his children read those mythical parables and OT stories, or God might be
very, very angry!;)> Still Proud to be
>
> Gandalf
>
>
Thanks for allowing me to vent a little. I have more opinions, but I
don't want to totally attack someone whom I have no relationship with. If
don't want to totally attack someone whom I have no relationship with. If
you would like to contact his ministries with letters of discontent, it is
Dr. Jobe Martin, and Dr. Mach has his Texas address.Corbin Casarez
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:38:07 -0500
From: "Kevin J. Clement" <clementk@alink.com>
To: scifi@mvnc.edu
Subject: Re: New Age in Imaginary WorldsAt 02:30 PM 11/12/98 -0500, Corbin K Casarez received this dream from Cthulhu
in sunken R'yleh:
>Hello all,
>
>I attended that sorry evening, and left quite disgusted. I have discussed
>it in several of my philosophy classes and in honors discussions.
What was the general response offhand?>On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Dr. Anderson M. Rearick III wrote:
>
>> Hello Group:
[snip]>He did not claim C.S. Lewis was demonic. He did not even say he was
>occultic. But he did say that much of Lewis's mythological fiction was
>not Christian in content, and that a discerning eye would be wary of such
>literature. He said also that the group formed by Tolkien and Lewis was
>of occultic nature, though in the question and answer session he clarified
>to say that he did not judge Lewis specifically to be involved in any
>occultic practice. However, he was harsh about association indicating
>guilt.Wonder if Dr. Ryding was there as I read The Lion, The Witch, and The
Wardrobe for one of his classes as he used as an illustration of the Christian
message in another form. Oops. Now if Lewis was associated with people who were associated with the occult, who were they? Tolkien? A good Catholic who studied pre-Christian literature is still a Christian, though Dr. Martin would probably
say it is a waste of time. Oh well, time to read Tolkien again. While I'm not a
fan of most fantasy since Tolkien due to the poor knock-off nature of most of
the books, fantasy (or fiction for that matter) has it's place in literature
and in the human experience. (which is a topic for another posting) Wonder what
his opinion of Beowulf is...I wonder if "the group" is referring to the influence of Tolkien et
al on the culture or actual groups they were both in, namely, the Coalbiters or the
Inklings. Lewis formed neither, Tolkien formed the first group to encourage
discussion of Icelandic literature and had nothing to do with the founding of
the second group. I quote from Humphrey Carpenter's authorized bio of Tolkein
p. 149, "They were no more (and no less) than a group of friends, all of whom
were male and Christian, and most of whom were interested in literature." Very
informal. A bunch of English Profs. sitting around after class at the local pub
going over each others latest stories. I'd like to know his sources. (unless he
thought they were the local chapter of the Illuminati or the Golden Dawn; oops
I've said too much)>> In some ways I can understand his connection of Lukas with New Age. But
>> much of what comes out of that is more clearly connected with Zen
>> teachings. The problem I am having is whether or not this speaker feels
>> that all fiction must function within the realms of the mythos we see
>> around us in our day to day lives?
>
>I believe this would be accurate. He said firmly that he wanted his
>children to live in a "real" world, as if the New Age movement was one of
>fictional existence. He did not let them watch cartoons, read books with
>talking animals, or observe anything that was outside the realm of normal
>rationality. I hope his kids' creative functions still exist when they
>turn 18.
<G>
Well Lucas read up on a variety of myths and religions, esp. Joseph
Campbell (good read but a bit too much synthesis; not all religions are *that*
alike; his writing also meanders a lot) to get a universal hero myth in the
form of a space opera. Makes the movies accessible to all IMO, and that's not a
bad thing. Aren't there several Christian cartoons and several Christian kids
shows with talking animals? Oops.> If this is so, then he will have a
>> hard time with Tolkien, Lovecraft and Poe (just to name a few). But I
>> am getting ahead of myself. Can anyone please tell me what was said
>> this past Monday?[snip of good stuff]
Good points. Fiction, storytelling, etc. all have their place. Reminds
me of a section in Canterbury Tales debating the potential sin of writing
fiction/prose or any stories that didn't actually happen. (i.e. they would
'misled' people) That was 15c. AD or so! Sorry the can't question bit doesn't
work. At some point any Christian has doubts or doesn't quite understand
something in regards to the Bible, God, Christianity, their faith, or the ways
of the world. Questions lead to answers, lead to the truth, lead to
strengthening belief. (sometimes in really roundabout ways)>> Still Proud to be
>>
>> Gandalf
>>
>>
>Thanks for allowing me to vent a little. I have more opinions, but I
>don't want to totally attack someone whom I have no relationship with. If
>don't want to totally attack someone whom I have no relationship with. If
>you would like to contact his ministries with letters of discontent, it is
>Dr. Jobe Martin, and Dr. Mach has his Texas address.
>
>Corbin CasarezGo ahead and vent, 'tis good for you. In due respect Dr. Martin sounds like an
intelligent capable person, he just happens to hold views that I do not agree
with. Wouldn't mind leafing through a copy of one of his books some year.Here's some related links in case you're interested
http://www.gospelcom.net/navs/NP/CTT/trendscope98.htm
has a realplay clip of him speaking on Creation/Evolution; look for Jobe Martin
on the page about an hour and 15 minutes if I read it right, first 10 minutes should be enough to get a samplingfrom http://www.arky.org/current/plainfld.htm#Martin
Biblical Discipleship Ministries - Dr. Job Martin
For over twenty years Dr. Jobe Martin has been captivating his students with
descriptions of some of God's incredible creatures which possess
characteristics that cannot be explained using the theory of evolution.
Attendees will gain a deep appreciation for the marvels of creation, and also
the knowledge necessary to defend their faith against evolutionary teaching.
Dr. Martin holds a Master of Theology degree, taught dentistry at Baylor School
of Dentistry and was a former dentist at NASA.Seems like he mainly is interested in proving evolution wrong by pointing out
weird creatures that couldn't exist under evolution. Used to be a New
Ager/Evolutionist himself evidently. (which explains a few things to me)Kevin Clement
member of the 74th Old Reformed Orthodox Cult of Cthulhu ^_^
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:41:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Anderson Rearick <trearick@mission.mvnc.edu>
To: science fiction and fantasy list-serve <scifi@mvnc.edu>
Cc: Rearick Family ------------------------------------------
Hi Gang:For those of you who have come in late to this chat, go to the link on
our web page which leads to a record of the discussion. I believe this
is a very important issue and will try to keep that page as up to date as
much as possible. In fact I feel so strongly about this I have even
shared this with my family members on the web.A.M. Rearick
(Gandalf)
Thanks Corbin for bringing me up to speed about the lecture the other
night. You articulated well what I have heard from other individuals.Dr. Wilkes, one of my sources, told me that while he found much of the
lecture thought provoking, he admitted that the speaker's style and the
amount of material he tried to cover may have hurt his presentation.
Apparently the mikes were not working well, so Dr. Martin shouted a
good deal (and no one likes to be shouted at).This is too bad because we now have to wade through side baggage in
order to examine some very important issues. Let us forget and forgive
that he yelled and overwhelmed his audience with information. Instead
lets tackle a central question about the cosmos.The following is an attempt to outline the discussion I had with Dr. Wilkes
about this issue. As the above "subject" indicated, a major concern for
Dr. Martin and Dr. Wilkes is "who is on the Lords side?"The point which Dr. Wilkes seems to feel was central to Dr. Martin's
position is the idea that we as Christians are engaged in a
struggle--a battle between God and Satan.
(So far Dr. Wilkes, Dr. Martin and I agree)According to Martin and Wilkes, God--as revealed through Christ--is the
truest best vision of cosmic reality.
(OK, so far I am with you)All other explanations and systems are false.
(If you mean in comparison with the light of Jesus, I agree)All other systems are therefor the property of the other--Satan. All
myths, all aspects of other religions, all created mythologies are
occultic and very probably demonic.
(Whoops! Here I must disagree.)
Warning lights began to flash in my head when we got to the part about
all other systems are false. It strikes me that St. Paul noted that even
when in error, humans have found divines truths. Remember the whole
bit about obeying the law without the law?I believe that God did not abandon all those other humans who were not
able to hear the absolute truth from Hebrew prophets and then later Jesus.
>From my reading I find there are deep truths in mythic stories which are
also confirmed by my readings of scripture.I am not suggesting that there are many roads to God. Jesus is the way.
However, I do believe that a loving God will reach down to a searching
soul and reveal Himself as much as that individuals perspective
of the cosmic world will allow. Thus the stories we find in other systems
are attempts to understand Gods ultimate reality.Forgive me for bringing up that occultic fellow CS Lewis but in the Final
Battle (the last of the Narnia series) all creatures must go though Aslan
to reach to real world of eternity. According to the narrator some
recognize Aslan as an old friend, others know him as an old enemy and turn
aside into darkness, but then there are some who suddenly know him as the
one they have been looking for throughout their lives.But not all Christians accept this. "One is either with Christ or against
Him." Thus all other mythic stories must belong to the great deceiver.What do you think people? In the middle ages the church declared that all
other systems of belief were spawned by Satan, ergo anyone practicing
another system was practicing witchcraft and anyone who did was burned at
the stake for it.If one believes this then indeed the New Age movement is one more tactic
of the evil one in a over-all, large, unified plan to mislead humanity.
Zeus, Oden, the Horned King, Coyote and Disney are all creating systems
which are exist for no other purpose than to confuse the believer. This
is where I think Dr. Martin is coming from. This is why he can take an
ancient symbol of virtue, the unicorn, and see it as continuing an evil
purpose since unicorns have always been in the realm of fantasy and
fantasy does not fit into what he sees as a Christian Mythic system.But it seems to me that when we hear stories from other mythic systems
we could also be looking at a wide variety of minds attempting to
understand larger realities than themselves. Thus, there is
no central, unified evil plan, but reachings (sometimes mistaken)
towards the truest of ways.And then there is no harm in reading fantasies since they are just
the attempts of human minds to express truths (or just to have a
rollicking good time).I'm sorry, I have gone on far too long. Please respond and tell
me what you think.Gandalf
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:39:03 -0500
From: "Kevin J. Clement" <clementk@alink.com>
To: Anderson Rearick <trearick@mission.mvnc.edu>
Subject: Re: New Age: Who is on the Lord's Side? [RANT]>Dr. Wilkes, one of my sources, told me that while he found much of the
>lecture thought provoking, he admitted that the speaker's style and the
>amount of material he tried to cover may have hurt his presentation.
>Apparently the mikes were not working well, so Dr. Martin shouted a
>good deal (and no one likes to be shouted at).Dolt! Never a good way to get one's point across. Still I'm glad MVNC
can get speakers such as him and others. (a wide range) I always like a good
discussion and find some good points from most everybody. (and almost never
totally agree with anyone; including myself ;P )>All other explanations and systems are false.
>(If you mean in comparison with the light of Jesus, I agree)
>
>All other systems are therefor the property of the other--Satan. All
>myths, all aspects of other religions, all created mythologies are
>occultic and very probably demonic.
[snip]And all unbelievers must face my broomstick! Bring out the torches and
oil! Sorry I thought we'd already found out that tactic doesn't work. Try
telling that to a non-Christain and see how long they stay to chat with you.
(or how long before they go and get their shotgun and tell you to leave)
This attitude leads to Christ as Warrior and leads to Crusades and other
purges which might work if all of your enemies are dead; not converted.>From my reading I find there are deep truths in mythic stories which are
>also confirmed by my readings of scripture.Agreed!
>I am not suggesting that there are many roads to God. Jesus is the way.
>However, I do believe that a loving God will reach down to a searching
>soul and reveal Himself as much as that individuals perspective
>of the cosmic world will allow. Thus the stories we find in other systems
>are attempts to understand Gods ultimate reality.One can read non-Biblical sources if one is grounded in the Bible and
not lose faith. As you state there is often truth, albeit distorted (though
parts of the Bible aren't exactly easy reading), in other works. Sorry my
bookshelf is always going to have more than a Bible on it.>What do you think people? In the middle ages the church declared that all
>other systems of belief were spawned by Satan, ergo anyone practicing
>another system was practicing witchcraft and anyone who did was burned at
>the stake for it.And look where that's gotten us. It's become one of the key arguments
*against* Christianity and I have yet to hear a good argument for it. ("well
there were lots of witches at that time" - and that justified killing them?
Good way to gain converts for the God of Love) And just look at the success
rate of the Crusades from a theological viewpoint: lotsa people killed,
Pagan thought and science brought back to the West, Holy Land lost for good,
Constanople helped in it's downfall (hum maybe a good point from a Western
point of view). . .
There's a good book on the Middle Ages that I read two years ago. Very
good overview showing how complex the times were. We tend to generalize.
Civilization of (in?) the Middle Ages I think.>If one believes this then indeed the New Age movement is one more tactic
>of the "evil one" in a over-all, large, unified plan to mislead humanity.
>Zeus, Oden, the Horned King, Coyote and Disney are all creating systems
>which are exist for no other purpose than to confuse the believer. This
>is where I think Dr. Martin is coming from. This is why he can take an
>ancient symbol of virtue, the unicorn, and see it as continuing an evil
>purpose since unicorns have always been in the realm of fantasy and
>fantasy does not fit into what he sees as a Christian Mythic system.And guess what? Satan becomes far more powerful than God. (just add up
the non-Christain religions and compare 'em to the numbers of
Christains/Jews; especially if you add all the people who've ever lived;
God's people have *never* been the majority no matter what some might think
of America as God's country) People with this type of view wind up with a
weakened God and a weak Christian who is about to be overcome by Satanic
forces at any moment. Sorry but I thought Christ was far more powerful than
Satan.>But it seems to me that when we hear stories from other mythic systems
>we could also be looking at a wide variety of minds attempting to
>understand larger realities than themselves. Thus, there is
>no central, unified evil plan, but reachings (sometimes mistaken)
>towards the truest of ways.Again if Satan controls that much power, we are nothing more than poor
Zarathustrians (sp) without the myths of that culture. (yes I've read up on
Persia) I see such ideas as a sensationalist "The Devil's everywhere" type
thing. Well if he's always there and so powerful why worship God then?>And then there is no harm in reading fantasies since they are just
>the attempts of human minds to express truths (or just to have a
>rollicking good time).As long as we remember they are fantasies, reflections. This guy has a
problem separating what's real from what's not. Probably thinks everyone who
watches the Highlander show carries a sword at all times. Right.>I'm sorry, I have gone on far too long. Please respond and tell
>me what you think.That's ok, I often ramble on longer than normal for email. (i.e. more than a
paragraph) This is a good topic but one I'm familiar with and tired of
rehashing the same arguments. (time to write that book I guess)>Gandalf
Hope I didn't repeat myself too much. Feel free to edit this and post it to
your webpage if you wish. I didn't want to post too much to the scifi list.
Oh, and on New Age in general: I find aspects of it interesting but it's not
really anything organized. Most of it's a joke (and/or a scam) but I see it
as a general search for knowledge and help; that the Church hasn't given
them (or they haven't found) and Science by definition cannot provide hope
and meaning, only tools and knowledge. (which is why I have found few real
atheists)Kevin Clement
clementk@alink.comoff soapbox and off to bed
This message was forwarded to the listserv on Friday 13
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:39:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Dr. Karen Cubie Henck <henckk@enc.edu>
To: Anderson Rearick <trearick@mission.mvnc.edu>
Subject: Re: New Age: Who is on the Lord's Side?Hi Gandalf (Tad),
Thanks for your beautiful response to your colleagues. Here are
some additional thoughts:
A few years ago, when Karl and I were living in Connecticut, we
attended the episcopal church for which the English Chair's wife was the
rector. She delivered a wonderful sermon about her reaction to the "One
Way" and "Jesus is the Way" bumper stickers. The upshot of her sermon was
that where there is truth, there is Christ. For me, this cast the whole
discussion into a new light. Instead of insisting that we limit truth to
what we know about Christ and God specifically from our own church, our own
experience, and the scriptures, we need to acknowledge that Christ and truth
are consistent, that they belong together. We need to continue our own
reachings after truth (as you described it) as we attempt to understand
ourselves, the scriptures, and the dynamic, ever-changing world in which we
live. And as we come to fresh realizations about truth (which survive the
Wesleyan quadrilateral), we need to have the courage to speak out against
previous misconceptions, such as the idea that women are not equal partners
with men in the kingdom of God, or that African-Americans are not fully
human and so deserve to be enslaved.
In some ways, I see postmodernism as creating some exciting
opportunities for Christian scholarship and creativity. For this movement,
at least in part, arises out of a reaction against materialism and the
limitations of a reductionist scientific world view. While I appreciate the
achievements of science and the value of the scientific method, as a
Christian I also react against the urge to deny any possibilities beyond the
tangible or observable. For this reason, as a student of literature, I am
excited about magic realism, and its acknowledgement of psychological and
spiritual realities. Rather than fearing postmodernity as exclusively a
weapon of the devil, we need to recognize that part of its appeal to people
lies in a yearning for greater possibilities than literary realism or
scientific explanations can provide.Ciao,
Karen
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